A new book has arrived that is a must for fans of the Walt Disney Company. Chronicling – in great detail – one of the darkest periods of the studio. Author Stephen Anderson (who you might recognize from his story and directing work on several productions from the Walt Disney Animation Studios, including Meet The Robinsons and Winnie The Pooh) takes us back to the time after Walt died to before Eisner, Wells, and Katzenberg arrived at the studio in Disney In-Between.
The book takes a fascinating look at the era, at both animated and live action productions, all products from a studio that was once known for forward thinking and taking risks, now stagnant with a fear of change. After reading the book, I was able to sit with Stephen and chat about much of the content that can be found within – from an entirely different look for The Black Cauldron and the tension caused by Don Bluth and his allies in the animation department, to the Golden Oak Ranch and the amount of research that has gone into this book, Disney In-Between, now available from The Old Mill Press at their official site, here.
Tony
What made you want to sit down and think ‘I need to write about this time in the history of the studio?’
Stephen
This is my childhood Disney, this era. I was born in 1970. So the first few years of this 20 year window that we're talking about – The 70s and early 80s – That was my Disney. I obviously loved the films of the Walt era. But this was the new Disney, these movies, like The Apple Dumpling Gang and Escape to Witch Mountain and Pete’s Dragon and The Black Cauldron and TRON, and all these things like this was my Disney that I got really excited about. So just on the fan level, I was excited about digging into the stories behind these films and how they were made and who made them but the other side of the coin, I would say would be that it's a period of time that tends to get skipped over in the in the Disney history books, it's usually prosperous time of Walt, Walt passes, maybe they talk about a couple of the films within this time period and then they tend to then pick up with Michael Eisner and Katzenberg. Then the Renaissance happened, that we got The Little Mermaid, then we got, you know, the Touchstone explosion and we got all this stuff… Those are two great extremes. Those extremes are all about success and prosperity. But to me, I thought, yeah, but what about this “in between” time? What about the in between of these two extremes, there's a lot of great stories. A lot of great drama and a fascinating story about how a studio – that was based on forward thinking and kind of a fearlessness about trying new things – Got a little stuck. They got a bit paralyzed by the fear after they lost Walt and there was quite a period of stasis there. I think that there's a lot to learn about those times.
Tony
I love that you did the in-between with the two extremes and made that animation correlation there. And I know you talked about it, and Jerry Rees (The Brave Little Toaster) did your forward and he kind of talked about it too. Is that something guys worked on together or what happened there?
Stephen
No, I had that prior to talking with Jerry about the forward. But I do remember talking with him and he immediately picked up on that, “in between,” and just kind of even in our conversation that we had he kept using the “in between” time. I think he liked that. That metaphor of animation has extremes, and in betweens and life has extremes, and in betweens and, you know, connecting those two. So I thought that it was really cool that he picked up on that.
Tony
So you kind of talk about this too in the book with the films – the refusal to change. And I feel like that is what tainted the brand irreparably because as I read it, and the way you lay the groundwork – It felt like it was just basically saying this is the time, that 20 year period it sounded like, when it basically became “Disney is just for kids and nothing else.” Is that something you kind of meant to do?
Stephen
Disney always was for kids… but it's also for the kids and for all of us. Everyone. I mean, I think really, Walt made films for everyone, and it does feel like even though their intentions were pure, those that carried on the Disney name after Walt… sort of got it a little almost like they simplified it too much and so that it became very young. It became very, almost cartoonish, almost sitcom-like, a lot of the live action films in particular. And I do think they lost that sense of “How do you make films for everybody?” It was almost a fear of “If we make them for more than just kids, we're going to somehow tarnish the Disney name. If we make films that are a little more mature or that might appeal to an older audience somehow that's not going to be Disney.” And it's ironic to see in today's Disney, what is Disney now? But it's interesting how fearful they were back then of doing anything out of that little box. So yeah, I agree with you. I think that's, that's for sure the time where Disney got so oversimplified to being just for young kids.
Tony
How much research did you have to do just to get the live action stuff?
Stephen
It was more challenging because at least particularly for the 70s part of live action, most of the directors and writers and producers were people that came from Walt’s time and were people that came to the studio during then, or people that Walt groomed into those positions. And unfortunately, that means they're all gone. They're not around to talk about their experiences, so I had to try to find people that are still around but had memories of those people or those productions that they could talk about. So it's definitely more of a challenge to access the live action side of things, but I found it really important. [There were] so many films that were made during that time period that have just sort of disappeared and not saying that they're all misunderstood classics. A lot of them – with all due respect to those that made them – are less than perfect, but I think it's it's also just interesting to uncover some of those so that so people do say, “oh, wow, there's there's a lot more films made during that time period than I thought.” They were still cranking out the movies that just did not register with audiences and they have not stood the test of time.
Tony
I was reading the book – and I didn't know this still existed to be honest – You talked a lot about the Golden Oak Ranch and it kind of made me do a little side trip into a rabbit hole looking into it. But it made me curious… how many times did you go, if at all, as part of the research effort?
Stephen
Never went to the ranch. The irony is that the ranch is like two exits down the freeway from where I live. But I've only been there once and it was for a company event way back when. Probably like 2005, and it was probably for a company retreat, otherwise I've not set foot on that ranch ever and I would love to go back. They've rebuilt a lot of it, a lot of the old Disney locations are gone, but it's been since rebuilt, but I still just love back lots in general, so I would love to walk around… WandaVision was done there. The neighborhood street was at Warners, but then downtown was there at the ranch. And if you watch any of the shows, like Dukes of Hazzard, so many of the 70 shows you will spot the ranch all throughout those shows, because it was not just Disney. But all of Hollywood used that.
Tony
As I was looking further into [Golden Oak Ranch], it just made me curious how much it kind of played into why so many of the live action films of the era all kind of became amalgamated, is the use of the same places on the ranch.
Stephen
Yeah. And the same with the studio backlot they did have. It's not there anymore. But they did have a sizable back lot, not to the scale of Universal or Warners or anything. I went into sort of an archaeological obsession last year, like going through live action movies and frame grabbing going oh, there's that building. And I've seen that building in all three other movies. And that corner of the lot and that building and that. And it's like, if you look, to your point, it is repeated. [You see] the same locations because it wasn't a very big backlot. So the suburban street, same houses over and over, and the downtown, same buildings over and over.
Tony
Again, you kind of talked about these being your childhood movies. Was there any specific project that you were excited about, like “I can't wait to look more into the background of this one?”
Stephen
The first one I would say would be Pete's Dragon just because that was such a favorite. And again, I acknowledge that it is far from perfect because I can watch it now and I have notes. But I remember as a 7 year old kid and a Disney nerd and people, somebody who loved movie musicals and animation, the Disney live action animation combo that they did because, like, nobody did that better than they did, but it had ticked every box for me when I was a kid, so I was really curious to kind of dig into that. And to get to talk to Sean Marshall, who was the actor who played Pete, and Al Kasha, who was one of the songwriters on the film. And then to go into the archives and dig into some of their old documents and read through old treatments and scripts was pretty cool. I wish I could have done more… Boy, if I could have found more folks that worked on that film, I tried to get the screenwriter of the film. I couldn't do it, wasn't able to secure an interview, but at any rate, that's one that was really kind of close to my heart. Those, particularly those two interviews, were like a pinch me moment where I’m on the phone with these two people that I love so much.
Tony
I love how you write the book by year, because you start planting the little seeds dropping hints. For myself and others who have deep dived previously into the Walt Disney company history, it's fun to see the foreshadowing of what’s to come. So when you were looking back at things like Pete’s Dragon or any of the titles that you were fond of, did you get that kind of excitement? Like, I found this little clue and I know what's coming now.
Stephen
Yeah, absolutely. I loved one. Yeah. One of the things for Pete’s Dragon as an example. I had heard that it was developed in Walt’s time for a TV show, but I was only very peripheral, so when I found out… the first treatment was sometime in the 50s. Late 50s or maybe it was early 60s. Blew me away because I didn't think it was that far back. But then I did love the idea of like, “oh, that's kind of fun” because, you know, we're we're sitting in the early 70s when Pete's Dragon kind of starts getting some traction, but we know that the movie doesn't come out for quite a few years, but we can talk about it now and kind of say, “oh, it's brewing over here on the sidelines, and someday it's going to be a reality.” So I did like doing that and I sort of looked at it like a movie story, like a screenplay, planning your subplots and starting in act one and planting those little seeds and then threading your subplots through act two and then into act three, all that stuff.
Tony
You had the live action content and you saw how meaty that was, and then the animation which was meaty as well. Did you ever think to do it as two books or stick with one because you're talking about the era?
Stephen
I always thought about it being [one book] because animation and live action, particularly back then, were so intertwined. The line between live action and animation was very blurry and people were kind of crossing over between live action films and animated films and animators were doing animated titles for live action films and working on designs for some of the live action films. So. To me, it felt like, It's the story of the studio. The movie studio is the protagonist of the story, and the two halves of that protagonist are live action and animation.
Tony
You start hinting at TRON and I'm like this is it. This is where they’re meeting. And I thought that was great. You also talk about the evolution of Who Framed Roger Rabbit but I felt bad because in my heart I'm like, I know where this story ends and it's before Roger happens.
Stephen
Thank you. Yeah, it was heartbreaking to talk to those guys about [Roger]. I mean, fascinating. But at the same time, They were just so passionate about that project. Now, also from a personal standpoint, I've been there. I've been in those shoes where you have this project that you just think “this is the greatest thing in the world. It's going to be the best thing ever” and it doesn't go anywhere or to see someone else then take it and make it…It is heartbreaking.
Tony
You [weren't present at the studio] specifically for this era, so you didn't witness it first hand. I loved how you built in the division amongst the artists with the Don Bluth gang and the Cal Arts Kids and the old timers. Did you feel the tension talking to the people who were there?
Stephen
Yeah, I'd always known there was that. I mean, I viewed that from the sidelines. I remember as a kid reading all the newspaper articles and seeing all the news reports about people having left Disney, you know, it was such an unheard of thing to do. So I knew that there had been tension. But I didn't know it was like that. It got so bad. It got really toxic there and you could absolutely feel it's still lingering in people's minds and hearts. There were a lot of people who have moved on… But there were a few people that you could tell they haven't gotten it yet. It was 1979. That was a long time ago but it made that much of an impact on them. So yeah, I could definitely feel it.
Tony
How long have you been interviewing for and researching this book?
Stephen
I started in 2010 working interviewing Burny Mattinson – Disney legend who passed away last year. But at the time when I decided I'm going to get this book going, Here I was working on Winnie the Pooh, the feature that was released in 2011 and Burny was with us through the story development because he had worked on two of the original three Disney shorts. Burny was there in the studio, and we're like we should get Burny because nobody knows Disney and Pooh like Burny, but then I I realized, well, I'm sitting next to Burny every day in these story meetings…why don’t I just start talking with Burny? He's been here forever. Let's make him the first step. So yeah, 2010, I believe it was July 2010 is when I first started with Burny and then it grew from there.
Tony
You yourself are a filmmaker and with all of this content that you've gathered for your book, would you ever do a documentary about this subject?
Stephen
I had thought about that early on about should this be a documentary? Should this be a book? and I chose a book because I wanted to get really deep into the details and kind of Into the soil of this garden, if you will, and I feel like a documentary is great, but sometimes they're a little – you sort of have to stay on the surface a bit more and you have that kind of finite amount of time. That said. I would totally be open to doing that. Also, having said that, it does intersect a little bit with Waking Sleeping Beauty. It's almost like if this was a documentary, it would be sort of the prequel to Waking Sleeping Beauty, but they're a little bit of a crossover. At least from the animation standpoint, so. But outside, totally open to the idea of doing it and a lot of the interviews I've filmed. So if the people give permission, there's that footage as well, but I thought I would want to get a little deeper into it.
Tony
What movie for you starts the Disney Renaissance? Most people will argue it's The Little Mermaid because it was the big box office title. But I personally say if you look at the word renaissance, it's the rebirth. So when it starts coming out of that in-between time. So I always say The Great Mouse Detective, but I'm curious what your thought is.
Stephen
Interesting because the first place my brain goes to is to say Little Mermaid. But having said that, you're absolutely right, and Great Mouse Detective is one of my favorite animated films ever made. So I think you're right, that is where it all started. That's where the seeds had been planted. Throughout the late 70s, early 80s really started to blossom, and that's when you see Ron and John, Ron Clements and John Musker come into their own as directors. It's really where you see them. The main group of animators and craftspeople that were responsible for the Renaissance films they were gelling. That was coming together on Great Mouse Detective. So you're absolutely right. You can't have Little Mermaid without Great Mouse. You can't have any Disney movie without Great Mouse Detective because that really saved the day for Disney Animation.
Tony
So on the flip side, when did it end?
Stephen
I started there in ‘95 the Monday after the Pocahontas Wrap party. OK, so there was all of the success from Lion King Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and all that. We're still feeling the effects of it. That I was kind of witnessing each movie, which by the way, nothing against the movies themselves, I think all the movies are great, but you could just tell that the audience was not connecting with these movies gradually. I mean, there were a few spikes like Lilo… but yeah, I think that's kind of when you start seeing the audience gradually kind of turning away from Disney movies for whatever reason.
Tony
Keeping it timely, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice hit theaters recently, and I feel like I need to ask. Would you have wanted to see Tim Burton's Black Cauldron?
Stephen
Yes, I absolutely would have. And I'm sure you've seen online a lot of the sketches that he did for it. And then hearing some of the things that people talked about, some of the work he had done on it. I mean, it would have been so fresh, so unique, so different and really cool. In retrospect, I think, well, it’s obvious it's all about the story. So whether or not he still would be in service of the story, that was a little weak then, at least the visuals would have been something completely original and maybe that would have elevated the film. As it is, the visuals are what you expect from Disney and executed well, but nothing new, not breaking any new ground, so to see his designs come to life and be animated purely looking like his designs and not translated by anybody would have been pretty neat.
Tony
When I was reading that, there were so many people championing him. And then again it goes back to “we don't want to do anything different.” Though I wonder if The Black Cauldron got made a few years later based on the timeline you present in the book, if it would have been any different?
Stephen
Yeah, if he had come sort of in the Eisner Katzenberg era or like, if, let's say, Tim Burton left CalArts [later] and then and came into the studio then, would there have been more of a home? But then if that had happened, we wouldn't have gotten Vincent and Frankenweenie, and then eventually Pee Wee’s Big Adventure, so I guess the trade off is that maybe The Black Cauldron would have been better, but we might not have gotten the auteur director that he became.
Tony
Are there any things that have made you want to shoot off and do a separate book? If that would be something that interests you? A second book on another particular era, or something expanded that you already have in Disney In-Between?
Stephen
That's an interesting question… It could be interesting to do a really deep dive into some of these things just, you know, on their own as a solo project and. And get into that. Yeah, for sure…. I mean, I have toyed with the idea of – And this word is so pretentious – but doing some kind of a memoir type thing about my time at Disney. Since I did get there in ‘95, as things started to dip. And then, you know the bulk of what I did was. At least as a story artist was Tarzan, The Emperor’s New Groove, Brother Bear, and then even like ending with [Meet the Robinsons], I mean that era was another in between time, another dark ages at Disney as it was.
For now, let’s stick to the era that Stephen already wrote about so brilliantly in Disney In-Between, which you can pick up a copy of now at the official site, here.
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