This past weekend during San Diego Comic-Con 2024 in Southern California, I had the wonderful opportunity to sit down with Star Wars: The High Republic authors Tessa Gratton and Justina Ireland for a roundtable interview with two other journalists. Together we covered the writers’ recent work on Lucasfilm Publishing’s ambitious storytelling initiative, and what fans can expect next.
Q: What’s your favorite aspect about Vernestra Rwoh as a character?
Justina Ireland: That’s a good question. When I conceived of Vern, it was mostly just because– has anyone else ever been a gifted kid? You’re 10, 11,12, and someone’s like, ‘You’re smarter than everybody else.’ And you’re like, ‘Yeah, I am!’ And then you’re like, ‘I’ve got it all figured out.’ And then you go through high school, you’re in your AP classes and your advanced classes, and you’re like, ‘I’m going to college!’ And then you get to college and you’re like, ‘Wait, no.’ Or you graduate high school like I did and you’re like, ‘I can’t afford college. What am I gonna do now?’ And then you go to the Army. So for me, Vern was always that aspect– what happens when the gifted kid is tested beyond their limits? It’s like, ‘You got here. You got to the place everyone said you needed to be. You’re a Jedi Knight. That’s where you need to be.’ And now you’re like, ‘What, what? What do I do now? There’s so much I don’t know still, even though I thought I had it figured out.’ For me, that was always my favorite part of Vern, and that’s one of the reasons [why] originally, when we conceived her, she was just gonna be a one-off Jedi. I always love the regular people in Star Wars [as opposed to the Jedi], and so Avon [Starros was going to be my focus], and then I was like, ‘Wait, no. There’s something interesting here about [Vernerstra’s] narrative,’ because when you start to talk to other gifted kids, you realize, ‘Oh, we’re all a mess.’ We all get to the end and we’re like, ‘Wait, this is it? This is what I was so excited about?’ So that’s always been my favorite part– it’s like, ‘What happens when you get to where you thought you’re supposed to be and you realize there’s still so much further to go, and I don’t know how to get there?’
Q: What has it been like to see that character represented in other media, and as a creator how excited are you to get to explore different eras of her life?
Ireland: It’s a little bit like watching your kids grow up and go to college. And you’re like, ‘That’s the college you chose? Why?’ [laughs] ‘There’s so many better ones. I guess it’s okay if you’re happy.’ No, it’s weird. It’s kind of just the business of IP, right? You shepherd a character along so far, and then you hope they do fly off to other media, or [that] other creators see that there’s something in there. When Tessa was writing Vern in Temptation of the Force, she had to reach out, and she was like, ‘Hey, are you okay if I do this?’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, do whatever fits the character.’ That’s the business. And so I’ve never understood when people get all sour grapes about, ‘Well, they did this with my character and I don’t like it.’ It’s shared storytelling. That’s what’s amazing about it– being able to share that character. For me, it’s all awesome, honestly. I have no complaints. You’re never gonna hear me crying in my pint about [it]. It’s just one of those things– ‘It’s cool, man.’ If people want to be upset about things, there’s other things to be upset about. The world’s a mess. Star Wars is great. People [complained about] the lightwhip. I’m like, ‘That’s not me! You gotta go back to the 80s for that! I just brought it back.’ [Note: the lightwhip as a concept indeed originally appeared in issue #95 of Marvel Comics’ first ongoing Star Wars title, which was released in February of 1985.]
Mike Celestino, Laughing Place: Justina, since you are one of the ‘Story Architects’ of The High Republic, how has your approach to this project evolved over the course of its three phases? Have you noticed a difference in where you were coming from at the beginning to where you are now?
Ireland: It was never jazz. A lot of people thought that we came up with an idea and then were like, ‘Let’s figure it out as we go.’ It was always very much like, ‘These are the steps. These are the phases. This is what’s gonna happen in each phase. Here are the big building blocks.’ I think the things that we found along the way [were] mostly character moments that we didn’t expect. There’s always a lot of really fun discovery– and sometimes frustrating discovery– when you’re executing a plan. Like I said earlier, I’m in the Army, and we always [say], ‘Plans are great until they fall apart.’ And then what are you gonna do? Because every plan falls apart. But in this case, we’ve stayed pretty consistent with the overarching storytelling. Mostly we’ve been surprised at the small moments that fans have found merit in– small things that are throwaway lines or things that you’re just doing because you’re building and tying your world into an existing world. Star Wars fans are really great with a magnifying glass. They’re really like, ‘Oh, this character said this one thing so it ties back to this lore.’ And you’re like, ‘Yeah, that works.’ [laughs] ‘Good job, guys.’ For me, that’s what’s been most surprising, but as far as things that have changed… we had always known that we were probably going to have to pull in more writers when we started, because it’s a lot of writing we’ve put out. There’s been a lot of content. And we always knew where the story was going, so now it’s just about trying to stick the landing, honestly.
LP: Do you find yourself reacting to those fan reactions in the writing?
Ireland: I see [reactions] so far after [the novels are released]. Right now we’re writing books probably a year before the previous book comes out, so by the time you see a fan reaction, there is no time to course-correct. So if people hate things, you’re like, ‘Well, good luck with that!’ [laughs] ‘Because you’re gonna have that next thing, too.’ It’s like surfing, where you’re like, ‘I’m gonna ride that wave.’ But you never know how far that wave’s gonna take you– how far you’re gonna have to go before you bail out and jump on a new wave. Sometimes [fellow High Republic author Cavan Scott] would put something in one of his books, and I was like, ‘Oh, that’s a cool idea. I want to build on that.’ And then that would be an element I’d bring in as a subplot in something. So yeah, I think it’s been pretty much what we set out to do– maybe better than what we thought it would be. That’s always a good thing.
Q: Tessa, how did you go about constructing the characters of Yord Fandar and Jecki Lon for your upcoming novel? Had you seen footage from The Acolyte or were you just going off of scripts?
Tessa Gratton: Neither, in fact. I knew essentially nothing, except I had a call with a bunch of people who had seen at least the first four episodes, and some of them were familiar with the whole story arc. And they told me a few key character things… absolutely no plot things, nothing that was gonna happen. I only knew the aesthetic of the characters, and they were like, ‘Godspeed.’ [laughs] I had already written the entire outline and the first third of the book before I ever saw the first episode at the premiere, so it was very seat-of-the-pants… ‘Well, at least I know Star Wars.’ [laughs] I know how to write a Star Wars adventure and can start building on these [characters], and then once I had seen the premiere [episodes], that helped get, ‘Okay, this is at least what the banter is like.’ I’m still working on it. I did get a lot of images, which was really cool, but also not particularly helpful. [laughs]
But it’s also kind of good, though, because then you’re writing your own story. I think sometimes when you get too much information, you start second-guessing yourself on the page. You’re like, ‘Oh, is this feeding into that narrative? Is this doing this?’ Then sometimes it can block you up. Particularly because– as opposed to the Project Luminous [High Republic] books, where I was co-creating characters in a lot of ways, and taking characters that had been created before I joined on, but having access to the creators and so it was a really dynamic process– in this way I was just excavating on one hand what I wanted from these characters as a fan, and as, ‘Well, I also have to write a book that hopefully will be good and that people will want to read.’ And so while it had very specific limitations, it was a challenge that I had never faced before, and I appreciate that as a creator.
Q: What would you say surprised you the most about those two characters?
Gratton: That’s a really hard question. I am not a particularly visual writer, and so I actually stopped watching [The Acolyte], because I was thinking too hard about things that weren’t important for my book, which takes place several years before the TV show. My job was to write a fun adventure about these characters and leave them in a place where, over the next few years, they could develop into who they are in the show. So I actually ultimately found it more distracting to think about them [in the context of] the show, and I still feel that way, because as I said I’m still working on it.
LP: I want to ask you both about the Path of the Open Hand– this cult you created that has a distaste for the Jedi. How did this idea develop as the origin story for the Nihil?
Gratton: Yeah! Let’s talk about cults!
Ireland: Let me take you back to 2018. [laughs] This was our second story conference at Skywalker Ranch. There’s a whole cult documentary ecosystem, and this [era] was the beginning of that. And so we were brainstorming different stories– we already knew that we were doing three phases, and we were talking about [which characters] we were gonna have: ‘This is our Big Bad. Where do they come from?’ And Claudia Gray actually said, ‘We should have a cult.’ I’m a very excitable person, and I jumped out of my chair. I’m like, ‘Yes!’ And we literally, within an afternoon, had completely hammered out the cult. Then when we went away, we each had a writing assignment, and that was [mine]– the cult and the characters [within it], and who they are. It’s just because I’m like, ‘Why doesn’t anyone dislike the Jedi?’ It’s just a matter of fact that if you exist in a place where certain groups have a certain amount of power, people are gonna dislike them deeply. It doesn’t matter if they’re good or bad or otherwise; someone’s gonna have some heartburn about it.
And especially when you have this idea of the Force– it moves through all things. You have to assume that there’s a lot of Force-sensitives in the galaxy that aren’t Jedi, or aren’t powerful enough to be Jedi, or aren’t found by the Jedi when they’re young. So when it came time to do [Path of Deceit], I was like, ‘Tessa, you have to come write this book with me, because it’s gonna be the best book ever.’ [laughs] And it was literally because we should see cults in Star Wars. What makes Star Wars great is when we see the things we recognize in a slightly different way. Tessa was a huge part of it, because I had outlined the [story], and then when she was writing the Marda [Ro] chapters, she was finding those small moments that made it [feel very real]. Those things that cults do– those small moments of brainwashing, where everyone agrees the same thing. ‘The Force will be free,’ and that kind of stuff. That started [as an idea] in the beginning, and we were going through Phase I writing the books and I’m like, ‘I can’t wait to get to Phase II, because we’re gonna get to do the cult!’ [laughs]
Gratton: Yeah, that’s how Justina brough me on board– she was like, ‘I know you want to write a book about cults and monsters and kissing.’ And I was like, I do want to do that!’ [laughs]
Ireland: Now you’re in! [laughs] Again, like I said, we aren’t playing jazz. We had a plan from the outset; it was just about making sure we’re hitting those marks. And I think that was the first book where I was like, ‘Yeah…’ We got to those last chapters, and I’m like, ‘Heh heh heh heh…’ People are gonna be so mad! But in a good way.
Q: Can you talk more about your collaboration process?
Gratton: Half of the books we’ve written together have been Star Wars books, and the other half have just been our fun pandemic books, basically. They worked similarly, except for the fact that the Star Wars books came with a very specific mission, because of what Justina’s been talking about– ‘These are the beats we have to hit, and we don’t have a choice about that, so we have to flesh everything else out and work on, really only, a very character and nuance and world level, as opposed to [story].’ In our other books, we have to worry about plot, too. [laughs] We’ve been friends for a while, and like a lot of the same things, and dislike a lot of the same things. But I think [we] have really complementary and different skills and weaknesses. Justina is great at action and raising the stakes, and knowing when we need to make [the writing] either more intense or more exciting, or people are going to stop reading. And I think I’m really good at slowing things down and saying, ‘Okay, but we need to prepare for that with a character moment or whatever.’ And I think that dynamic in particular has really worked in the High Republic books.
Ireland: What Tessa means by ‘slowing things down’ is making it romantic and kissy. [laughs] Because I’m like, ‘Whatever. The romance will figure itself out. We need to get some more explosions.’ But it was really one of those things– we split the chapters, so we each wrote Kevmo and then Tessa primarily wrote Marda and I primarily wrote Yana, just because of the kind of characters they were.
Gratton: [Then] you said, ‘You know what we need here? We need a flood!’ [laughs] And I was like, ‘A what? Don’t put the babies in danger!’
Ireland: I’m like, ‘They’re gonna die!’ [laughs] ‘It’s The High Republic; it’s what we do here.’
Gratton: None of the babies died. [laughs] No one died in that book until the very end.
Ireland: There were even points where I would write a chapter and I’m like, ‘Ooh, this needs to be more romantic.’ And so I would leave a note for Tessa like, ‘Can you fix this? It’s very utilitarian.’ She would come in and add a little bit more of that romantic language. And then even with the action scenes I’m like, ‘Okay, we need a couple more beats in here.’ So we’d write the initial chapters and then we’d go over and revise each other’s chapters, and just leave notes like, ‘Hey, this is what I did.’ But that’s really how our other books worked, too.
Gratton: The most different of the books was Defy the Storm, because all of those characters were your characters– in a way that is normal with IP, and that I’ve gotten very used to by now. But it was a lot. We had so much more that we had to accomplish in that book, partly because it’s in the final act of the project, and also partly because we were back in the Phase I timeline, and so there was so much more history. Whereas with Path of Deceit, we were essentially starting from scratch with the characters. And so it was very different with Defy the Storm, just figuring out where to put everything. It still worked out great. [laughs]
Q: What was the process of deciding when to create new characters and locations vs. bringing in existing ones from the wider Star Wars lore?
Ireland: One of the nice things about The High Republic– because I’ve written in the other timelines as well– is you don’t have to worry about the history. If you’re writing in the sequel trilogy [era], you’re not gonna mention Alderaan, because it ain’t there! [laughs] But you’ll get a note from [the Lucasfilm Story Group] and they’ll be like, ‘Please, can we move somewhere else besides Naboo. It’s a very big galaxy.’ So I do think sometimes the instinct is to just play with what already works, but we’re also creators. Even though we’re working in somebody else’s sandbox, we’ve built our own sandboxes plenty of times. So we’re like, ‘You know what this sandbox needs? It needs a twisty slide.’ [laughs] I do think for me, it’s a lot of fun to build new toys. But also, new toys don’t have plot armor, and sometimes that is exactly what you need to break out of things. One of the few reasons I do love The High Republic is [that anyone could die].
That was the great thing– it was the first time you could pick up a book and you knew the characters weren’t safe. If you picked up a Rey book [set] in-between the seventh and eighth movie, you knew she was gonna make it. There’s not any mystery there. Obviously Luke is gonna make it through the entire Original Trilogy. So when you have new characters, you don’t know who’s gonna make it. And there were a lot of conversations we’d have with other [writers]: ‘You should kill this person instead of this person, because the arc doesn’t make sense. This person has fulfilled their purpose.’ And the other person would be like, ‘You know what? You’re right.’ And we would do that, because it didn’t really matter who made it to the end. I mean, obviously Marchion Ro was gonna make it to the end, because he’s the Big Bad. But other than that, almost everybody else were like game pieces on a board. For me, I love it. I love building new toys and smashing them horribly. [laughs]
Gratton: I’ve really enjoyed finding ways to balance that out. ‘I need a random planet; what cool stuff can I do? It’s an alien planet– it has to be as weird as I can think of, and I don’t have to explain everything. I can just explain the cool stuff.’ So I enjoy that, because I love world-building– finding those little connections that make this weirdness on this planet relevant and interesting. And then at the same time I also like putting my own little mark on Naboo, for example. It’s also like, ‘Well, I know what Naboo looks like, so this is gonna be easy to describe.’ [laughs] And every once in a while that’s a nice break. I can just upset people by scrawling Nihil eyes all over those beautiful domes of the capital of Naboo. So it’s a fun balance, I think– finding ways to put our own spin on the history, and then also just playing.
LP: In Defy the Storm, you have characters who cross the Nihil Stormwall in pursuit of different goals. Justina, what do the Stormwall and the Occlusion Zone represent to you as storytelling devices?
Ireland: I’m a kid of the 80s, so I remember when the Berlin Wall came down. I remember my grandma calling. We lived in California– we had never been to Germany– it had no impact on us, really. But it was sort of the end of communism– you know, not really– but it was the end of communism in the 80s. ‘Defeat communism, Red Dawn, War On Drugs. Everything’s gonna be great!’ [laughs] It was this moment where I was like, ‘Oh, that’s great.’ You saw those videos of people reunifying– hadn’t seen family members in years. And so for me the Stormwall has always been that kind of moment, like, ‘What does that mean for the average person?’ I’m not talking about the Chancellors and the Jedi, who are not average people. But you’re working at your crappy job on Corellia building ships, and your brother lives [on] Eriadu or one of those places, and all of a sudden you can’t go see him on Life Day because you can’t get across the wall. That sucks, and for me that has always been what I like [about Star Wars]: ‘What is the average person’s experience? What does this mean for people?’ Because I do think sometimes we forget it’s not just about these chosen-one narratives that we fixate on. It’s really about that average person.
I always used to joke around like, ‘I really want to know what the janitor on the Death Star was doing.’ He’s like, ‘Wait, what?’ He had his widow at home with kids. That was the best job he could get! [laughs] Does she get a widow’s pension? No, she didn’t, because it’s the Empire. They don’t care about your widows. The Empire cares not about your children… unless they’re stormtroopers. But anyway, everything’s been done before, because we’re humanity. We’ve done terrible things to each other, and we will continue to do terrible things to each other, but hopefully there’s some light in there as well. So for me, it’s always been about those moments. And of course Cavan, Charles [Soule], Claudia, and Daniel [José Older]– they lived through those moments as well. I think sometimes there’s historical moments that imprint on you. Starlight Beacon is very closely tied to the Twin Towers coming down on 9/11. I was in the Army on 9/11, so for me I was like, ‘Oh, everything’s different now.’ I think a lot of people have those touchstone historical moments that you live through, but they just make their way into your writing. For the Stormwall, of course you can probably point to hundreds of other different instances in history, but [the Berlin Wall] was the one that’s the biggest, to my life.
LP: Tessa, a similar question for you but about the Blight– which is an interesting new threat in Phase III of The High Republic. What makes this phenomenon compelling to you as a writer?
Gratton: The fact that it is inexorable and the same– it’s not like the Nameless effect, which affects everyone differently. All the Jedi have their own reaction to [the Nameless], and different reactions to [them] in different moments, because of how [they] invoke their fear– all kinds of responses. But the Blight is just this one thing. It doesn’t change, you can’t affect it, you can’t talk it down. You can’t do anything; it just keeps coming, and I think that is significantly more terrifying. It’s interesting to me trying to figure out how to have the Jedi react to it, because it is essentially an absence of the Force.
Q: Are there any characters in The High Republic era that you would like to play with, but haven’t gotten the chance to yet?
Ireland: No. I think at this point it’s just about sticking the landing, honestly– landing the plane. [laughs] We are just trying to make the runway, get to the end, get a round of applause, and go home. I’m gonna be honest: when we started this, I didn’t think that it would necessarily go this well. I’m not a pessimist, but I’m kind of a realist. And so I was like, ‘Wow, it’ll be great if we get to do all three phases.’ Because no one lets you do things if they’re not going well. We’re book writers, and series get cancelled all the time. It’s not uncommon for that [to happen]. TV series get cancelled all the time. So the fact that we’ve gotten to the end is a win in and of itself, regardless of what random people with an internet presence say. For me, I’m just like, ‘Well done, guys. Let’s go have a beer and go home.’ It’s just been great.
Gratton: I think so. I’m super excited. Technically I am done, because Temptation [of the Force] was my last part of Project Luminous. Everybody else on the team is still working on things, and I’m just like, ‘Oh yes, it’s so nice [to be done].’ [laughs] But I knew that going into Temptation and so I let that take a lot out of me, knowing this is the end of my part of this really incredible project, and I’m really happy with that ending. I mean, who knows what’ll happen over the next few years, and obviously I was immediately seduced into The Acolyte book, but it felt really good for me when I finished Temptation. To be like, ‘There we go. I did this thing. I participated in this really impressive and incredible project.’
Star Wars: The High Republic – Temptation of the Force, Defy the Storm, Path of Deceit, and many other books and comics from Lucasfilm’s Star Wars: The High Republic storytelling initiative are available now.